Protected vs. Connected

Are you tired of having the same argument with your partner? Do your conversations end in frustration instead of resolution? In this episode of Bare Speak, Boston-based relationship therapist Edith Block joins host Laura Williamson to unpack why couples often repeat the same disagreements and how to break the cycle for good.

Discover practical tools to improve communication, express your needs with confidence, and build a stronger emotional connection. Whether you’re in Massachusetts, New England, or anywhere seeking a healthier relationship, this heartfelt conversation will help you understand your partner on a deeper level and create lasting love through awareness and growth.

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Thanks for listening to Bare Speak, a space for women who want to feel stronger, more connected, and more supported in their bodies and lives.

I’m Laura Williamson, a fitness and wellness professional with 20+ years of experience helping women move with more confidence, less pain, and more trust in themselves, especially in seasons of change.

*New episodes every other Friday
 *Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/laurasbarefitness
 *Learn more about me https://barefitnesspilates.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:34

All right, hello everyone. This is Laura Williamson, and this is Bear Speak. Welcome. It's nice to have you here. I am your host. I am a personal trainer, a Pilates instructor. I am a Reiki practitioner, nutrition consultant. I'm trying to remember if I missed anything. I think that's it for now. But at any rate, we're here today. No longer are we in the TV studio. We are now doing a podcast. We're sitting right here and live for you. You can still see us. It's just in a smaller, cosier space. But we have an awesome guest with us today. Oh, and we're no longer bear speak, also. We're bear well, bear speak, and we used to be bear fitness. I'll say it again. We are bear speak and we used to be bear fitness, so you don't confuse the two. So when you get ready to look for us, you know how to find us. All right. Again, Edith Block is going to be our guest today. She is a therapist and she's got some good stuff, and we're going to be talking about all kinds of things today. So you want to stay tuned. And uh Yeah. Edith, hi. Hi. Welcome. It's nice to have you today.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Thanks so much, Laura. It's nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, can you tell us and tell them a little bit about yourself? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah. So my name is Edith Block. I live here in Wakefield, Massachusetts. I didn't always live in the United States, though. I was actually born in England and lived there for the first 10 years of my life.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

And then moved here when I was 10. And um grew up in Natick. Went to Natick High. Okay. I dated a guy from Natick, by the way. Oh, maybe we maybe we know maybe I know him.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Oh, we might need to talk about that. Okay, that's yeah. Okay, stay focused. Okay. Okay, but yes, please continue.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I I'm a therapist. I have a small private practice. Um, you know, that I started in the pandemic, so I'm still virtual. Um I don't have any brick and mortar. But yeah, I see all my clients um over the over the internet.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. All right, so that's that's pretty cool. So it seemed that the the internet was easy and a safe space for a lot of people. Yeah. Uh during a pandemic, but post-pandemic, it seems to still be holding pretty strong for people.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

I I see. I think so, yeah. I th I do get some um, you know, some folks say, Do you have an office? And I don't, so I'm obviously not their therapist. Okay, but I um yeah, during the pandemic, obviously everyone was virtual, and that sort of opened up a door specifically for um this industry for therapy to be virtual. Um and yeah, I mean, I think there, I think there's um it still makes it sometimes easier for folks to meet virtually. I think they can meet me on their lunch break or uh you know they're working from home so they can log in. They don't have to drive anywhere, park somewhere, and you know, therapy is really an hour then versus maybe an hour and a half, two hours to get somewhere and park.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Okay. Well that makes it much easier. Yeah. So my question to you is what type of therapist are you? What do you specialize in? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So I I do work with individuals, um, adults, um, mostly women, but I also work with men, um, sort of ages 25 and up, okay. Going through transitions in life, first jobs, second jobs, back to school, getting into relationships, you know, all the major changes that we experience um as we grow up.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Um men.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Really? I've never I have to say, and I apologize if for not knowing, yeah, I haven't had a therapist necessarily say, Well, I specialize in helping men transition in life. Um, is that new? Is that something different? Something you specialize in? Could you tell a little tell us a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Um, I think across the board it's men and women. Okay. They, you know, everyone has um new experiences that they're working through. Um so the my actual specialty I would say is with couples, but I do see still see probably about a quarter or a third of my practice as individuals.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Um, but my my passion is my individual clients.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

And my specialty, I would say, is with couples.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Okay. Yeah. How long have you been a therapist?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Um, 18 plus years, about 18 years. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I've done it in like different um iterations. When I first graduated um from uh with a master's, I worked with in in-home therapy, which is um working with sort of at-risk use youth and families, trying to keep families together versus um go to programs or even um incarceration. Okay. So trying to keep the family unit together. Um so that was like the first um, you know, first sort of decade of my life of my of my um career. And then I m started working um in a private practice in Medford, and at that point was working with high conflict, some high conflict divorcing couples and their families. So um yeah. And then in 2021, I started my own practice.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Okay, yeah. So then I have two two questions for you. Now, did I read somewhere here that you were a social worker?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

I am a social worker. You are a social worker. I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. Okay, you you are. That's a license I carry, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Ah, okay. Yeah. All right. What made you decide to get into this this industry or this field?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, okay. That's a really good question. Um, I think, okay, so I'll I'll start with saying I think this profession probably chose me versus I chose it. Oh, okay. Um, and what I mean by that is that I think um, you know, I think folks in the in the helping industry tend to have a reason why they want to help other people. Um, yeah, as I mentioned, I moved from London to the to the US and at age 10, which is a significant change for anyone. I can imagine. Um part of that also was I moved here with my mom, stepdad, and brother, and my dad stayed in England. So there there was some stuff I remember the first counselor I saw was one right when I first moved here.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Um, in school. So um, so I think that probably leads to some of why I chose this profession. Um uh when I started undergrad, I I thought I'd be a teacher, and I think that came from you know, spending much of my teen years babysitting for neighborhood kids and that kind of stuff. So that sort of I thought I wanted to work with children and adolescence. And as I got further into the field, I realized that was not my passion. Okay. Um, but yeah, so my first um in undergrad, I was my first major was um education, and then I decided to change it. I don't know exactly why, I can't quite remember. Um, and I changed it to social work, and so I got a bachelor's in social work.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Okay. Yeah. But at what point did you officially decide? I want to work with couples, I want to work with families. This is I think this is the direction I should go in. It feels like the right thing to do. Yeah. Can you recall about when that happened for you?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Um I can I can't recall an exact moment, but what I can think about is that as a child of divorced family, divorced parents, um and you know, separated family in different different areas of the world. I think there's a big part of me that wants to save other families. Um, and I think w when I was working with kids um in the other private practice, I did some child child therapy. Um, I noticed that a lot of the work that I needed to do was with the parents.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Um, so I thought, well, you know, that that's a that's a trickle-down method that actually works, right? That you work with parents, then they can help their kids. Okay. Um, so I don't know if there was an exact here's the moment that I can recall, but I think there are a lot of factors that led to it.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Out of curiosity, how affected would you say the children are or you were when you have parents who are divorced.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And when I say affected, I'm I'm I don't want to use the word traumatized, so I'm gonna say affected only because I know that it's gonna range child to child. That's that's absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, yeah. Um, I think um I think kids can be very affected.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Um but on the other hand, I will say this kids can also be affected by parents who maybe would be better off not together. Oh, so yeah, so I mean, you know, best case scenario of a couple are getting divorced, they're either working with a therapist or some other source to really make sure that the kids are affected in the least traumatic traumatic way.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Okay. Okay. Um Wow, there's so much here. Um I had never, well, I haven't had reason to think of it that way. Um but to think of it that way, it puts a different spin on it, to be honest with you. Um I have never heard anyone say sometimes you know, it's difficult for a child when parents separate, but it's also difficult for them when they stay together. That conversation doesn't come up very often. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, believe it or not, um, we're not gonna talk a lot about this because I think this is a huge topic and probably for another day. I would like to focus on couples today. So probably more on the divorcees than anything else. So I'm gonna put a pen in that and that might have to be saved for another day because it's very interesting that you say that. Um and all that being said, what I'll also say to you is at what point did you say, you know, I need to, or we should really look at the couples here and how we can help them so that they can help their kids, but so they can help themselves. Because if the parents aren't in a I don't want to say a good way, I hate to because I feel like that's judgment, then it's gonna make it very difficult for them to if they if they need to help themselves, they need to also help their loved ones, and that can make it challenging. So why why the couples? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Um it's a good question, and I think my family of origin is a big factor. Um also like d so when I worked with at-risk youth and children, um the amount the amount of work was with the parents of how to, you know, manage their emotions so that they can help their kids manage emotions, right? So that sort of um that's a piece that I think feels relevant to this question. Um and then when I worked with um highly conflicting divorces and the children seeing the impact on the kids of parents who have decided to divorce and doing it with heavy use of court systems and adversaries, um, making it more of a fight than a we want to come together and come come together and divorce, right? In a in a way that's um palatable for the kids. So I think that at different stages in my life it it sort of um led to when um when I did decide that this one I was gonna have this as a specialty. I think a more recent example that I haven't mentioned yet, during the pandemic, obviously a lot of people needed help and a lot of people were seeking um couples therapy um and seeing how impactful the you know, being home in my own relationship within four walls, um, as well, as well as seeing how different families were trying to navigate this to the best of their ability, giving support to the parents really does help the whole family. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So I'm gonna back up a little bit because I noticed that you moved back to London at some point. You live with your dad.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

I did, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

So what prompted that change?

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah. So I had done undergrad over here, I went to Westfield State, got a bachelor's in social work, and then I was working, I was living in Framingham. I was doing some sort of I was working with adults with autism and you know, working at a restaurant for extra income and wanted to go back to grad school. And my dad, who you've met, and he loves you. Yeah, loves you. Yeah, he does ask about you when I talk, when I talk to him. He is pretty awesome, I must admit. So I mean he he said, if you want to go to grad school over here, and and you know, I so he and my mom separated when I was like newly born. So, you know, I primarily lived with my mom and then dad weekends and holida school holidays. Okay, and then we moved over here. So there was a we stayed in contact, obviously. Um but when he offered that, I was like, yeah, why not? Let me let me go over there. I mean, it's significantly cheaper to get educated outside of the US. Yes. Um, that's but I yeah, I wanted some time with my dad. He's like my he's my bud.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

I love it. Yeah, yeah. And FYI guys, her dad is pretty awesome. I have to admit, he's he's I mean, he's pretty open-minded. He's pretty, I mean, yeah. I I he's he has a nice way about him. He has a really nice, um, a lovely energy about him, I have to have to admit. Yeah. Um, very calming in some way. Yeah. Um, but okay, so now. So now fast forward, we graduated, we have our master's degree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

We decide to come back to the US? I had my master's, I got my master's degree in psychodynamic counseling for children and adolescents, so still on the path of working with kids. That's right. Um, so decided to come back, or my um green card stuff had to come back so as not to lose my green card over here because I was still a s a British citizen. Okay. And green card holder over here. So I had to come back. Okay, understood. And but then stayed, right? I made a decision to stay for a number of different reasons. Okay. Um started working in the industry, liking my job, um, reconnecting with friends that I had before I moved over to the UK. Um, and then I got to a point in my career working um in the, you know, in-home family therapy, and I got promoted and was like a regional supervisor, and you know, but had reached a point the more the the higher you go, the less interaction you have with the clients, right? You know, this is the business owner. That's right. Um so I decided to go back to grad school again and went to Salem State and got a master's in social work.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

So while my master's from the UK um it was recognized here, there was no path to a licensure.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

So I had to do another master's to get a license. And the license is necessary to practice independently.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah. I've just said a lot.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

So now no, but you you clarified uh because I'm gonna fast forward now. Yeah. So we know you did all the things, we know a little bit about you. So now we've got to get into couples. Couples, let's go. Now we gotta dig in. Yeah. Now, yeah, what are some of the biggest complaints you have between couples? Between couples, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Some of the biggest, yeah. Uh well, it's it's so interesting because pretty much every couple I ask what would what would make this successful is we need help with communicating. That is the biggest thing. I gotta move things around right now.

unknown 17:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

What kind of communicating?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Well, it's it's funny because if you actually think about it, well, maybe not if you think about it, but so communication is very surface level.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Right, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

You and I are communicating right now. That's right. Our bodies and our minds are doing lots of stuff as we communicate. Um when when you're in a romantic relationship or any other relationship, really, um, what gets in the way of communicating is one's nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

It's um so not to get too like brain-oriented, but you know, when when we're children, we we um create defense mechanisms um as a way to survive.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

And those defense mechanisms, when we're very in very close relationship with somebody, they they rear their ugly heads, and it's those defense mechanisms that move people away and make it hard to communicate. You can imagine, like when you're arguing with a loved one. And the 10-year-old shows up. The 10-year-old shows up. No, absolutely. You're absolutely right. No, no, no. You're absolutely right. Um, and relational life therapy, you and I have talked a little bit about this. This is Terrence Real. This is the Yes. Yeah, Terrence Real. Yeah, yeah. And so he he he calls that the adaptive child.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

So when you're in what he calls the adaptive child, what you just refer to as your 10-year-old self, you're you're responding from a place of unsafety.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

So, you know, you can either depending on your makeup, you're either either in fight, flight, or fix. Okay. Or fawn, right? They're they keep adding what adding them. So if you're a fighter, you imagine what your communication looks like.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

If you're um fight, flight, if you're a flighter, if you're flighting, you're like shut down and your partner can't get through to you. So, and so the just to add to this, the most common in heterosexual couples, the most common dynamic we see is a pursuer and a an avoider.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

And if you think about that in like um attachment theory, it's like the anxious attachment and the avoidant attachment. Okay. And so those are those are the most common dynamic that you get. Um oftentimes, not always, oftentimes it's the female that is the pursuer, and oftentimes it's the male that's the avoider. Not always, that's not always the case. Um but that pattern, if you can imagine that playing out, can cause a lot of pain. And while it's about communication, it's about knowing what's going on in your body, where that comes from the past, why you present that way, so that you can change the script.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

So what okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

So what's your approach? When you're working with clients, where do you start? Where do I start? I I start with well, I think one of the things that I had to unlearn from other when I worked for the agencies that did in-home family therapy, the outcome was my responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

So I'm having I've had to unlearn that. The outcome of a couple is not my responsibility, it's their responsibility. So the reason I say that is because your question, I go into it without an agenda. Okay. I go into it with what's gonna make what's how's this gonna be successful for you? What would things look like? You know, the magic magic wand question. If I had a magic wand, And you woke up tomorrow, what would be different? And I want to see what would be different. I want them to say what would be different. Effectively, that's them setting their own goals.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah, so that's that's my my approach in terms of you know, first session is what what would this look like if it were a success?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

All right. So communication is the biggest one. What's the next biggest one amongst couples? Challenge that is. Mental load?

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Mental mint what do you mean by mental load? Um so mental load is the person in the couple that and I'm gonna choose a heterosexual couple that has children to talk about. Okay. It's the couple it's the person in the couple that has um the Christmas or holiday presence in mind that does the shopping, meal prepping, packing lunches, snacks, um, that has the all of the stuff, all of the annual, monthly, weekly, daily tasks on their plate. Okay. Um and what what we do see now more is that there is a more equal distribution of household tasks. Okay. We do see that more now. And there's usually um still the person in the couple that has those tasks in their head and maybe delegates them more. So that's like that's a snapshot of mental load.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Can you guess generally in a heterosexual couple which part party has that going on?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Usually the one that one the woman has the dates and the you know, because she's gotta be mindful of getting the kids to the school, yeah, or if they have activities that they need to get to. Yeah, and usually dad is working whatever number of hours, yeah, but it's mom who's delegating, like, I got the schedule up and I need I need and I only know that because of the people I work with.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I think we serve some of the same population there.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, so that's the only reason why I say it, not because men can't be in a similar situation.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Um, and them scheduling themselves to try and get in to see me. I also recognize that like I have to do this, this, this, this before I get to you. So now, with we touched on the women a little bit. I'm gonna go to the men for a minute. I gotta come back to the men again. Yeah. So as a woman, I already know one of two things that we wish we could kind of work on and could be a little different. I'm not gonna say better, but a little different based on whatever our needs are or mindset is. Now, the men, do the men have any complaints? Because I don't think they complain about anything, do they? It's just us complaining most of the time. Would you say that?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

So if you I know that's not a free statement, but if we think about this pursuer withdrawal sort of dynamic, a lot of the a lot of what I hear from men is stop nagging me. Okay, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

They still use the in-word nagging.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Nagging still comes up, or stop criticizing me, or that one. Yeah. Um, I'm whatever I do is not good enough. And I and um I asked my husband if I could use some examples, and he said yes. So I'm gonna I'm gonna take some creative liberty with that. Okay, awesome. Um in unsurprising in our dynamic, I'm the pursuer, he's the withdrawal. But then there's this other dynamic to it that um that even if he does everything his way, and it's his way is fine, there's a part of me that's like, but why don't you do it my way? My way's better, my way's the right way. And that can get tiresome.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Then if I do that, and when I do that, I do that sometimes, and I am much more aware of it now, um, I see him move further and further away. He withdraws more. So it's not about um it's not about one person in a couple making changes. It's about both people in the couple making changes. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 26:38

But how many women are out there sitting right now thinking to themselves, yeah, but he does it wrong all the time. He just doesn't get it right.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, I guess I guess the question to that would be who says what's right and what's wrong. Okay. That's sort of uh that's when we get into this other dynamic of who's the um who uh who who's what's the power dynamic? Who's the more superior one in the relationship and who's the one who's more filled with shame?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Okay. Oh shame. Okay, so now what I'm gonna have to do is I'm gonna have to ask for because I understand the I understand what you're saying. Yes. But what are exam some examples of this happening? Like what does it look like when it shows up? Yes. What's what's an idea or two?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

The dishwasher. It's always about the dishwasher. Okay. What happens with the dishwasher? If any of my clients saw this, they would laugh because they say you always use that, you always use that as an example. Um you you load the dishwasher wrong. Okay. There actually, I did look this up. There actually is technically a right way to load a dishwasher, but that's that's beside the point. I didn't know that there was. Okay. Okay. But if he's putting dishes in the dishwasher and running the dishwasher and emptying it and putting them away, even if he puts a cup over here, when I want the cups over over there, that's a stupid example. He doesn't do that. Um but you know, if he puts a big spoon in the little spoon section, who cares? Why it's it that becomes about control. Why is my way the right way?

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

And it's about letting go of some of that control.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Okay. So okay, so that being said, because as a woman, I'm gonna default to, but we always need to be right. No, that's not true. I just I it's a generalization. I know it's very gross, but I'm gonna throw it out. So, woman to woman, what I what I will ask you then is yeah, as a woman who's the pursuer, is there something we probably need to work on ourselves? I mean, you say control, but yes, what it what are some things um top three? Because I know it's easy to go, oh, these men, you know what they did and the thing and the thing. Yeah, however, yeah, I want to put it all out there. I'm not gonna leave anybody out today.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah. So well, and Terrence Real would say the answer to who's right and who's wrong is who cares. Because it's not a relational. Yeah, it's not relational. I'm right means you're wrong, I'm winning means you're losing.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

And that's that's a that's not a it's not a pretty dynamic in romantic relationships. That's not a good dynamic.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Um yeah, sorry, I just tried lost my train of thought. But um, so that that would be one answer to it. But to to your point, like, do women need to in you know, this this conversation we're having, women need to do some work too.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Oh, that's what I was gonna say. So back when I was um doing in-home family therapy stuff, I think the research suggested for every one negative thing you say to a child, a partner, a parent, a sibling, whatever, a friend, you have to counterbalance that with 10 positive to make it even. The research now suggests for every one negative, you have to have 20 positive. To, you know, like relationships are like a bank account, right? You need to make deposits so that you can make withdrawals. It's transactional in ways. Um, so if if I go home and nag my loving husband once, I gotta, I gotta say some positive stuff to counterbalance that. So that like it it doesn't matter if the dishwasher is the is loaded in a specific way. The dishes are getting done, they're clean, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Does that make sense? No, that makes perfect, but what I'm also hearing is is pretty much I don't want to say all the time this is gonna sound awful, but it feels like whatever's happening, it sounds like your words have need to be coming from a loving place in general all the time. Absolutely. It's not just some of the time, like, oh, I just know I just nagged him or I said something not so cool or something he didn't care for. Yeah, so now I gotta 20, I gotta count. I'm gonna do let me see. I'm gonna get five in the morning, I'm gonna do 10 around. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Like, yeah, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah, like and and so in my mind, the way I'm interpreting it is well, your words should be coming from a loving place in the first place. Yeah, but if I'm coming from a place of nagging or controlling, or however you want to look at it, and there's obviously work that I need to do in the first place, not to say that he aren't he isn't doing things that aren't annoying, but I'm with you, like, okay, so let's say dishwasher, the dishes are in there dirty and they're in the wrong place, the cup is where the plate should be, the plate is where the spoon should be, I don't know. But in my mind, I think, oh, thank God he put something in the dishwasher and turned it on. Yeah, like right, but that's where I am, I don't care about the dishwasher. Yeah, however, but that's also what I'm thinking about too. Like, okay, geez, if I'm in that space in the first place, or if it's even hard for me to come from a loving place, because it's not what you say, it's how you say it, right? Even if you don't agree. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

That's right, that's right. And I think, you know, um all relationships go through maybe on a daily, weekly, monthly, annually basis, they go through periods of harmony where we're good. You know, we don't have to think about the 20 to 1 type thing, disharmony where we're arguing, and arguing is actually a good thing, it can be a good thing, right? Um, and the repair, that's vital. So using this dishwasher example, and I'm I've belabored it to a silly point, but you know, if I say, Can you put the gosh darn cup in the right place? I then have to make a repair, and that is vital. And I think a lot of times when couples get into this almost like standoff, they don't they don't want to make a repair. Making a repair is vulnerable. You need to come down to make a repair. To make an apology, to receive an apology, you have to be open to that. And that's vulnerable and that's scary. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

But we have we it's that's hard. And most people don't want to be vulnerable because again, we come, we circle back and run. They don't want to be wrong, they want to win. Even they'll say, uh, oh, it's not about winning, but they want it to win, right? If we really peel the layers back, yeah, absolutely and look at it for what it is, right? Yeah, so how does one practice that or learn how to do it? Because that's scary, right? Yeah, that means I'm not tough, I'm not strong. That that opens you up for who knows what next time around of maybe, and I'm going extreme, right? Taking it back. I mean, and just to be clear, I am married, right? So I understand what you're saying because I've we've my husband and I we've had our disagreements. We have our disagreements. We have one the other day. Yeah. So, you know, but that means like, geez, I'm raw, I'm open, yeah, and I don't know what's gonna come. Yeah, right. So now we got safety, we got trust, we got a couple of things going. Yeah, yeah. How does one work with that?

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Well, I think uh in so many ways, right? I think recognition, for first and foremost, recognition that being in any relationship, not even just romantic, but um being in any relationship, there is vulnerability. Um in order to meet new people, you and I met you know a couple years ago, and in order to meet new people, you have to be open, you have to have an open heart.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Um and so there's another word for um the this pursuer, avoider, there's another word for avoider and it's shut down. If somebody's shut down, you can't access them. And then where where do you go from there? So that there needs to be a recognition that vulnerability is part of relation, relationship. And if you don't want to be vulnerable, then maybe don't be in a relationship. Okay, so it's funny you say that.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Because now I'm feeling like in my mind, I go inner child, I go right back, right? Yeah, and as someone, and I'll I'll speaking from myself, and I'm not gonna get all d delve too deep in this, yeah. I'm not opposed to therapy or having a therapist. Matter of fact, I find I find it's beneficial. I'll I'll say that. And not because I can't talk to friends, but there are some things that I recognize that I don't care to talk to my friends about, and not because I don't trust or love them, and I I don't believe, I do believe that they do trust, they love me and only want the best from me, but they're not they're emotionally invested. You got it. And sometimes I need someone to to be like, Laura, shake me up a little bit. Hey, listen. Yeah, had you thought about it this way, this way, and the other way. Yeah, absolutely. Right. So I guess the the the point is is it helps to talk to other people, but you know, it it is hard to be vulnerable and and and allow that to happen. Yeah. And but what do you do with someone who's just like it's a safe place for them? They automatically again revert to their 10-year-old. Because at some point in time, as a therapist told me, or mine told me, she said, uh, it must be safer for him to be in that spot than it is to be open with you right now.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yep, yep. So you've you've said, so you asked how do we work on this, and you said the magic words in a child. Yeah. So in a child work, whether we call that trauma work, whether we call that um parts work, whether we call that um just identifying where this um defense mechanism or relational stance, as Terry Wheel would call it, comes from, doing some work with it. And um in a relationship, you can't be protected and connected at the same time. Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. Have to be open.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Or you don't, but they're con there there's reproductive concept. Exactly, yeah. The other thing. You got it.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

So I want to touch on um, if I can, with you. And again, Terence Wheel, but we we talked about this um briefly. Parts, yeah. You know, yeah. Um that's a word that has come up multiple times for me. Okay, um, for my own reasons, but I would love you to explain that a little bit to people because I think it's valuable, yeah, and I think it's it's gonna be beneficial to a lot of people who never heard the word, at least not in this manner.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Um, so could you talk a little bit about parts?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Yeah. So I think without getting too detailed into it, there's like a simple question is I bet there's or what what is what's that part of you that finds it hard to be vulnerable in this moment? Right? What's that part of you that wants to be vulnerable? Because I think um we um I just got distracted. Yes. Um so okay, so we we don't so uh for using today as an example. I was excited to come today. Part of me was excited, part of me was very nervous, part of me was But you're awesome. I see the exact same thing. No very rarely do we have one feeling, thought, or yeah, feeling or thought about something. So this parts work helps us go, okay, there's a part of me that wants to be vulnerable, there's a part of me that's really scared, and there's a part of me that wants things to be different in my relationship, and so what do then then it's just easier to talk about. It's not I'm scared and I'm shut down over here. It's not that I'm totally open and I'm gonna be so vulnerable that you're gonna be able to really hurt me. Um it's not that it's not all, it's not all or nothing. Okay, it's just part of the whole. It's part of the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

If I think of a pie chart, I think in terms of slices. Yeah. And that's just a part of the whole. Yeah. And okay. Yeah. So um because we're getting to that point where we're getting low on time. What would you recommend for for work for couples to do to help themselves? Yeah. Okay. If that's what they want to do.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah. I mean, it's you know, reach out to a therapist if that feels um like the level they want to go to, or if they just want to try some stuff at home. Um, you know, planning is vital. Um, so you know, we my husband and I don't do it every week, but most weeks we do, and we don't have kids, right? But we're still like planning. We're planning for retirement, we're planning for, you know, to have the trees trimmed this weekend, you know, we're planning financially, we're planning um, you know, friends, family visiting, you know, all that kind of stuff. So planning. So taking even like a 10-minute, 20-minute window over the weekend of saying, here are the financial things we have coming up, here are the um tasks we have for the household, um, here are the fun things we want to do. Um, and also using that time um to to also connect and say, How are we doing this week? Do you feel like you're getting what you need from me? What more might you need? I feel like I'm getting what I need from you, that kind of thing. So, again, not transactional in like an ugly way, but I need X. What can I do to get help you give me X? Right. So planning is a big part.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Um, I can't think off the top of my head what well, okay, but because you did a wonderful job of uh making a list of some things, and you mentioned being intentional, being intentional, and active listening.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

There we go. Okay, so active listening is a massive one. And I can tell that you're actively listening to me right now because you are looking at me, you are nodding, right? All that kind of stuff. Um, so what can happen oftentimes is that I come home from work and I vent to my husband, and his go-to is problem solving.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

That's not what I need. I don't want to blame that just being on men, but yeah, I find it's sometimes to that point.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

There there are there's three types of listening, and I've learned this from Terry. There's active list, uh sorry, there's um problem solving, which is coded masculine. That comes easier to men generally. And oftentimes can just the the desire for a different kind of listening can cause an argument, right? So, and the second type of listening is coded feminine, and that's empathic listening. Okay, right? So, so even knowing the difference between that and saying to your partner, honey, I just need 10 minutes, I'm gonna vent, I don't want you to try and problem solve for me. I got this, I just need to get this out of my system. And giving parameters to it, because you know, we're talking in cliches, and that and they're cliches for a reason. If you know, if a if a man hears, honey, I need to talk to you, oh my god, how long is this gonna be? We're gonna be up till four in the morning, right? So give giving like some some um guidance to it. I just need 10 minutes, I'm just gonna talk, da-da-da. You just listen. Um that's helpful. And and also it's hard to be a listener. Okay, it's really hard to be a listener. So saying, What do you need from me? Do you need some problem solving or do you need some empathic response? Just just know what you need. And again, and ask and express what you need.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Does that go both ways, male, female? It doesn't matter which side. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

All right. Yeah. Um, I believe this has been very helpful. Um, this has been a lot of fun. Yeah. If someone wants to meet with you, or they want more information, how do they find you? Where can we where can we find you? Do you have contact information where where we can get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 43:41

So I'm on psychology today. Okay. And that's a um, as you know, sort of a place that you can find therapists. I also have a website and it's edithblock.com, and that gives that got my contact information there.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

And also before I let you go, Terence Wheel or Terry Will, as I know him. I know him personally. Yeah. I don't I don't either. Yeah. But he was recommended to me years ago, and we just happened to be talking about it. But I'm gonna ask you to mention him again. Yeah. And specifically exactly what he what he does in case people here want to look him up. Yeah, yes. So can you give us just a little bit more? I mean, we're not trying to promote, but he is, I find that he's he's um very clear. Yes. Uh he's very structured and very organized. He's very easy to understand. Yes. That's why I say that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

And you can find yeah, so he um he is a man, of course, and he's his background is family therapy. He's done a lot of male mental health um stuff. He's got a book called I Don't Wanna Talk About It, which is fantastic. Um, and he's got a number of couples um books that um you can look at. One's called Us, one's called I've read that one. You have. Okay. That's what it's a good one, isn't it? It is good. It is good. And it and he it's got a lot in there, you know, this adaptive child stuff, different scenarios, things of that nature. Yeah, it's pretty cool, actually. He's got a website, he's got a website, of course. He's also a I follow him on Facebook and he gives like little snaps, snaps, you know, little introductions of stuff. And um, he what I love about him is he he identifies as a recovering narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Okay, all right. I did not know that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

So yeah, and yeah, he I yeah, he's he's his model just fits sort of my personality and what I believe in. So he does he does come from a from a theor a theoretical stance of working within the patriarch, which we all live in.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yeah, okay, again, this has been fun. Yeah. And I guess last but not least, is there anything else, any small bit of advice that you want people to know? Um yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Last bit of advice before we sign off. Um, very quickly, I think people tend to have their priorities upside down. And the first order of priority is self. The second order of priority is a partner relationship, and then doing those helps take care of the kids.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Right? I think a lot of people with kids, that's their priority. Right. And they're not working on the relationship, they're not work not working on themselves.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Which makes day-to-day stuff hard, as you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah, I do know. I'm very aware. Okay, again. This has been amazing. It has been incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. Yeah. Um, I I'm excited. I I know this is is gonna be beneficial for someone. Yeah, it's actually it's been very beneficial for me. Thank you so much for spending time with us. You're welcome. And hopefully we can have you back again anytime. Real soon. Anytime. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. Everyone, this is Bear Speak, formerly Bear Fitness. I'm Laura Williamson, your host, and we will see you, actually, see you next time. Have a great day.